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There’s been a fair bit of coverage on my social media of the recent interview with Tim Farron after he was elected leader of the Lib Dems, where he repeatedly deflected the question of whether gay sex was sinful. My initial reaction was bemusement, as I wondered why people care what someone else believes about their ability to relate to a God that they don’t believe in. With a bit more reflection and some comments from others I realised that there’s a lot more cultural weight to the idea of sin than that, and I also got the feeling that the acknowledgement that we are all sinners is seen as facetious and insincere, which is far from my experience when I have thought the phrase myself, or heard it from other Christians I know.
There was an article I read recently, I’m afraid I can’t remember where, in which a Christian who does believe that homosexual acts are sinful talks about why he is more vocal in his opposition to that particular sin, compared to lying and violence and selfishness and so on. And his point was that whilst these other sins are certainly committed, and probably tacitly condoned, no-one is actually arguing that they aren’t sinful, or that one shouldn’t try not to commit them, just that it’s difficult, whereas with homosexuality, the dominant narrative has become that it isn’t sinful at all. And I think that that is actually a good answer to the question of why some Christians are concerning themselves with speaking out about homosexuality when there are far worse sins in the world.
In case it wasn’t obvious, I do, rather strongly, disagree with the belief that homosexual sex is sinful. I have definitely had sinful sex, which made me less kind and less loving, and probably more of it has been with men than with women, but then I’ve had quite a lot more sex with men than with women so that’s hardly surprising. But on balance, most of my relationships, whether of one night or several years in length, have been good and loving and positive experiences, and have turned me into a kinder, better, more loving person, and that is particularly and overwhelmingly true of my relationship with Ramesh.
But when one believes that something which is commonly viewed as acceptable is sinful then there is a bit of a dilemma. You can lie, which is of course, sinful in itself, particularly in the case where it condemns other people to sin. Or you can speak out, and suffer the social consequences. There are two big things which are commonly accepted and which I believe are sinful, at least in part because of my faith, and which I mostly avoid talking about, because I don’t want to look judgemental...
The first of these is not giving to charity. I don’t have precise or set numbers on this, and it’s definitely an area in which I fall short myself, but I do believe that if you can afford to, but are not giving away enough of your disposable income that you notice yourself able to have less fun because of it, then you have some culpability for the harms that could be averted by that giving.
The second of these is divorce, or more accurately, choosing to divorce someone who isn’t abusive. I’m not 100% on this, and I do believe that sometimes things and people change enough in ways that you couldn’t have predicted that it’s the right choice for everyone involved, but I feel that it happens a bit too easily, and perhaps more importantly, that marriage happens a lot too easily because everyone knows that it’s an option if it doesn’t work out, and what I really feel is sinful is making a vow that you only intend to keep if it’s convenient, or deciding to break it merely because it’s not, rather than because it’s become completely untenable to do so. I do find it very telling when Christians are far more vocal in their opposition to gay sex, which has a couple of brief Old Testament mentions and one in Paul's letters, that to divorce, which our Lord speaks about repeatedly in the gospels, and is a significantly more common phenomenon.
Now, with those beliefs, I don’t think that my friends who have chosen divorce after a foolish young match, or who don’t chose to give to charity are worse people than me. Perhaps that’s what I mean by “we are all sinners”. There’s so much that I need to do better that I can’t begin to compare, and perhaps it is easier for me not to sin in those ways because I’ve let myself have too much liberty in others. (and indeed, if my ex-husband hadn't left me when he did, seeing the man he's become since I would be sorely tempted) And I don’t think that my morality should be legally imposed on others (well, maybe I think that the % of the UK budget going to foreign aid should be increased, but not by nearly as much as I think we should all be giving).
But perhaps after reading this you think that I’m a terribly judgemental bigot, and if you do, that’s your prerogative. But if you don’t think that, but you do think that Tim is a bigot for refusing to say that homosexual sex isn’t sinful, then you might want to think long and hard about why.
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Date: 2015-07-21 02:32 am (UTC)From:-like your self-examination in commenting, whenever I think about the behavior of others I find it valuable to remember that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief."
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Date: 2015-07-21 10:22 am (UTC)From:http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/once-in-a-saintly-passion/
only discovered when Googling for it that it's from 1 Timothy 1:15 KJV...
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Date: 2015-07-21 07:25 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2015-07-21 10:36 am (UTC)From:For instance I would care very much indeed if the belief that "divorce is a sin" ended up leading to legal divorces being harder to get. I don't think divorce is a sin at all, or rather I think that since we live in a country where in order to have a romantic partner legally recognised as your closest family you are required to say that you intend to be together forever that that promise is extracted under duress and I have no trouble in recanting promises made under duress.
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Date: 2015-07-21 11:03 am (UTC)From:He really, really doesn't think that public policy should be used in that way.
The whole point of his refusing to answer the question is that he's a liberal and has consistently voted in favour of increasing equality for LGBT+ people.
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Date: 2015-07-21 11:41 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2015-07-21 11:41 am (UTC)From:Having now done my long and hard thinking, I think I still see a difference, and put it down down to two things:
1. I not only don't think homosexuality is a sin, I, erm, actively do think that homophobia is one, and have for a long while. I think such views when expressed cause harm, and even when not expressed they drive a wedge between the holder and God(s), and make it harder for them to have true compassion and understanding of other humans. I think it also causes homophobic people to not notice actually sinful same gender relationships, and be oblivious to sinful different gender relationship. I believe this very much in the context of, "we are all sinners", mind you! (Though I tend not to put it like that, partly because I've had one too many bad experiences with people who've used that phrase a means of justifying both judging others very and harmfully harshly, and refusing to take responsibility for their own behaviour. I just tend to say, "we all mess up, we all grew up in the kyriarchy and hold some harmful views and attitudes (especially those of us who have privileges along any axes, but of course internalised crud is also a thing), and most of us are trying our best". Which I know means precisely the same thing as "we are all sinners", and takes a lot longer to say, but it sits better in my brain. ;-) )
2. I think power differentials always matter. Divorcing people and non-charity-givers are not regularly victims of hate crimes, do not have a massively increased risk of homelessness (except divorced women and divorced abuse survivors, but that's in the context of the patriarchy, not the divorce), and do not have powerful lobbyists attempting to make life hard to impossible for them. And so on.
Having said all of which, so long as Tim Farron isn't intending to allow his views to colour LibDem policies, I don't have too much issue with him. Though it does make me think a bit less of him, and (even) less likely to rejoin the party.
(I should note I have no intention of persuading you or anyone else of any of this! Just, this is what my thinking came up with in response to your challenge, as far as understanding my own thinking goes. :-) )
To address your own list of sins: well, I completely agree with you wrt charity giving, unsurprisingly. ;-) I very much disagree that divorce is a sin (I don't have the spoons just now to expand on why, but it's to do with my views about continuous consent trumping most other considerations), but I do think that getting married or making any other vow without proper thought and consideration is one. (And on that I can say a very full mea culpa, whatever my other feelings about my marriage and the relative levels of sin and awful within it.)
Given my agreement on your first point and at least a related agreement on your second, I think what would be useful would be for me to check whether I'd still hold to my view that you are cool with me and Tim Farron largely isn't over all this if you had indicated things as being sinful when I *do* thoroughly disagree.
*ponders*
Ah, okay, that's easy, actually. If you thought that Druidic ritual, Tarot readings and similar things were sinful. I can use this because I have a Facebook friend who I'm 99% sure definitely does (given she takes issue with the use of magic in She-Ra ;-) ), and I think also believes that homosexuality is sinful (though she's good on both points about not making an issue out of it). Okay, yep, as a queer, occasional magic user who recently had a Tarot reading done that really helped me, I definitely would still have far more of a problem with Tim Farron than with you, if you thought the magic was sinful, and again, for the reasons I've articulated earlier in this post: I don't think being against magic use is sinful, and I'm not in danger of hate crime because I had that Tarot reading or am going to Druidcamp. :-) (If I lived in some parts of the US I'd feel differently, I think, but then I'd have reason to, so that's fair enough. ;-) )
Yay, that was a good bit of thinking to start my day! Thank you again. :-)
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Date: 2015-07-21 11:44 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2015-07-22 07:19 am (UTC)From:I see it in the wider context where I think we're all falling short of the ideal all the time. I think I'm morally wrong for not going further and becoming vegan. I think I'm morally wrong for not giving more to charity. I think I'm morally wrong for not volunteering more. And, in countless small ways, day-to-day, I do and say things that fall short.
I think, perhaps because of my background, I have a more traditionalist view of marriage to many of my social circle - I won't say anything foolish like "I'll never get divorced" because it's hard to predict the future but I do feel quite strongly that marriage is a one shot thing for me. If it doesn't work out, I'm not at all interested in doing it again - not that I'd be celibate entirely but I'm not going to make another life-long promise to someone else.