Sleep procrastination

[wildeabandon]

Left to myself I'm pretty terrible at getting to sleep at a sensible time, and it's something that I've been trying quite hard to fix for about the last six months. It started off well - my life slowed down a lot at the start of lockdown, and I think that made it easier, but since then disruptions like surgery combined with life getting busier again have pushed it back off course, and whilst I don't think I'm quite back to square one, I'm definitely a long way from where I'd like to be.

Something I think I would find quite helpful is having some kind of semi-public accountability, as well as people to bounce ideas and strategies off, so I'm going to create an opt-in filter on here to talk about it. I would quite like the filter to only be people who are likely to engage with and comment on what I'm posting a reasonable amount, because otherwise I don't think it will actually work to make me feel accountable. I suspect that I'll probably post to it a lot initially, and much less as time goes by and (I hope) I develop better and more resilient habits. Given that, let me know in the comments if you'd like to be on the filter.

So my long term aim is to be reliably going to bed with the lights out early enough that I generally wake up naturally shortly before my alarm. Ideally I would also like for this habit to be resilient enough that I can occasionally stay up late for a particular event without it breaking. Below are some not terribly structured thoughts about how to achieve this.

I think that to start with I need to be super strict about having a routine that starts well before my intended bedtime. Once I've managed at least a fortnight or so of getting to bed on time I can think about and experiment with what I can safely vary and what needs to stay set in stone.

I suspect that I want my lights-out time to be 11.00, but I need to maintain it for long enough to really see what my sleep patterns look like if I'm not frequently playing catch up. It might be better to start with aiming for 10.30 and then consider moving it later rather than starting with 11.00 and potentially realising I want to move it forward.

Missing my ADHD meds plays havoc with my sleep schedule. Once I have an established routine then I might want to experiment in order to better understand these effects, but whilst I'm establishing I should be extra careful not to miss a dose.

I'm not sure what to do about my phone. On the one hand, leaving it downstairs means it isn't by my bed as a thing to procrastinate with, but on the other hand I have been finding that listening to a familiar audiobook is a useful way to nod off to sleep, and also last night I tried using a guided sleep meditation which seemed to work quite well. I think the answer is probably to try and find other strategies to be able to have it with me and not get sucked into spodding or playing silly phone games.

Something that I think would probably help is finding a pre-bedtime activity which doesn't lend itself to getting sucked in and doing it for hours, but which I find enjoyable enough that I'm not inclined to put off starting to do it at a suitable interval before going to bed. I feel like reading ought to work with the right material - nothing too challenging that feels like studying, but nothing too page-turney either.

Comments

[hilarita]

If you are not cash-poor, you can set up something else in your room that's less useful to play with than a phone. I just play audiobooks on CD, and I'm trying to move them all over to a Raspberry Pi that can then also be my alarm clock.

I wouldn't mind being on the filter, but I am being a bit shit at remembering to comment on posts.

[wildeabandon]

That's a good idea. My audiobooks are all on Audible and I have no sense of personal privacy, so I've ordered an Echo Dot.

[barakta]

I am using my old smartphone as a bed phone, it's useful for reading books on and I can choose whether I can access email/other on it (could remove those). I second the idea of an audiobook device of some kind or whatever. You probably have friends with a spare phoe you could have or buy a 2nd hand one.

Happy to be on your filter, I'm trying to do more longform blog reading/commenting to improve my focus and keep in touch with people I feel are friends. So I will try and commit to commenting regularly. I think your idea of aiming for 22:30 and moving it sounds more intuitive for me but I'm not someone who's ever had regular sleep and I believe I'm neurotypical (many autistic/ADHDic people I know have sleep disorders/challenges so it may be different for you and your NDish brains).

[sparrowpunk]

This sounds really interesting, and I would definitely comment on posts- my yoga teacher had her class do a month of sleep hygiene, which I really liked, but drifted out of the habit without her asking us all how it was going.

[sparrowpunk]

Also, I have tried the bedroom phone thing and liked it, and it has the advantage that I can put some music or books onto it but not have it generally connected to the internet, so I can't be tempted to check Twitter in bed.

[mtbc]

I read that if one's strict about when one gets up in the morning then the rest tends to follow.

I have to avoid anything intellectually challenging before bed, I can't play a game of chess or whatever in the late evening or my brain just remains too active, I need to do something more like passive consumption before bed. If I want to be made sleepy, non-fiction helps, especially something educational. Great bedtime reading for me for a period was a book about British nuclear energy policy.

I'm happy to read about this stuff but I'm afraid that I can't particularly expect to much comment so it's okay if I don't make the filter! For those of us outside it, though, please do occasionally let us know how things go.

[sfred]

I read that if one's strict about when one gets up in the morning then the rest tends to follow.
My experience of this approach is that I just end up getting less sleep, and the deficit leads to poor mental health rather than to more sleep.

[wildeabandon]

Yeah, that has also been my experience. I'm already pretty good at waking up when I'm supposed to (although I do quite often stay in bed futzing on my phone, which would be another advantage of leaving it downstairs)

[kaberett]

Yes, likewise, alas.

[hairyears]

Yes, this. Such advice comes from people who have crossed the event horizon between "I wish that everyone was as sensible as me", and the black hole of null-empathy where they believe that everyone else is exactly like themselves. And, when confronted by someone who is not, they can only think in terms of a defect to be rectified.

[wildeabandon]

I don't think this hostility is necessary or deserved. There was nothing in the original comment to suggest that anyone for whom the advice doesn't work is at fault.

[naath]

oh no, see, I religiously get up at 0715 all week, but turns out that if I go to bed at 0100 I get up at 0715, stumble through my day, and by 2200 am out the other side and "too tired to sleep", terrible idea.


I was better at sleep when I made my weekends by more like my week day, that is, not sleeping 'till noon. But, eh, pandemic...

I'd be happy to be on said filter.

[sfred]

I would like to be on the filter if you'd like me on it.

I also struggle with getting to sleep at a sensible time; I have phases of being fine and phases of... resenting how little evening there is to relax in, and so making it bigger at the expense of sleep. I do find that switching my phone off or leaving it at the other side of the room helps. I bought a little alarm clock radio mp3 player to replace the phone functions that are useful for having by my bed: I can load audiobooks and/or music onto an SD card that it plays to me for going to sleep and/or for waking up.

[highlyeccentric]

I will opt in, and endeavour to engage semi-regularly, although I have the entirely OPPOSITE sleep problem and thus may not be super useful. Although I had some success in 2018-19 with yanking my preferred 10.30-8am bed hours forward to 9.30-6.30, and while i'm doing okay at the evening timing i'm still fighting upstream to re-establish a morning routine (which requires some night time elements in place), so maybe I will be useful.

My initial thoughts re phones:

- my goal is to put my phone on the other side of the room. Sometimes I internet twiddle in bed, but 'win' this point by getting up briefly and putting it on charge on the far side of the room.
-- my actual recommendation for your SPECIFIC problem would be: surely you or someone you know has an old smartphone lying around? load audiobooks and meditation on THAT, and do not give it internet access / do not load the fascinating apps on it. (some e-readers also do audiobooks i believe)
- reading with the right material, yes. I have at times had success with books of poetry on my bedside table.

[ewt]

I would be happy to be on such a filter. I also have trouble with getting to bed as early as I need to. It's slightly worse in summer when it's light very late, so I am wondering if bluelight filtering glasses might be helpful, but I think it's mostly that by that time of day I've pretty much run out of executive function and struggle a lot with the things I need to do before bed.

There are other factors too. I feel like it doesn't help that a lot of meetings/rehearsals/social events happen in the evenings, so I have less control over my evening time than I'd like. Eating late also tends to mess things up for me -- I'm much better at going to bed at a reasonable time if I can start eating supper no later than 6pm, which in this part of the world is somewhat unusual (in the Before Times I'd be lucky if hairyears was even out of work by then).

I will be very interested in finding out what works for you!

[hilarita]

That has reminded me. I use f.lux or equivalents to help minimise blue light exposure, especially close to bed time. I don't let it use local sunrise/sunset, because this means I want to hibernate even more in winter, and never sleep in summer, which Does Not Work for me. Instead, I set it to be dim after a specific time (18:00 for work computers as a reminder to go home, and around 19:30 for home machines, to gradually wind down).

[ewt]

I have my phone on night mode all the time (even in the day), and don't really use other screens in the evenings very much. I did switch my overhead light in my workroom to a soft amber one and put the Really Bright LED Corn Bulb in the lamp, instead of the other way around, and that helped a bit for situations where I do need to be at my desk in the evenings.

[atreic]

Hello! I like to be on any filters you like to have me on :-)

I second the eating earlier suggestion. Might short stories work for reading material? They take a bit of brain, but on the other hand they Stop...

[hilarita]

I have some more general comments about what works for me, but they come with a massive caution, which is that these days I take strongly sedating drugs, so a lot of my bedtime routine is organised around making sure I can get to bed to get enough hours of sleep to be even slightly functional in the morning.

For weekdays, I try to set my alarm to a consistent time, which is early enough for all meetings within normal working hours. (Working on a big international project means that this does not always work, but of course if you're primarily working with people in the same timezone, this works pretty well.) I don't set it at weekends at all, but will, if well, tend to wake up a bit after my usual getting up time. I always get up as soon as the alarm goes off. This means that my routine is trying to sit well with when I'm required to work. (I get up at 07:55, which is about 1h45mins earlier than I'd like to in an ideal world, but I have to be able to get to 0900 meetings regularly.)

I need about 9h sleep (because pills), and it takes about 20 mins of faff to get the point of lying down listening to an audiobook, so I try to start the going to bed process at about 22:30. If I'm still up by 11, that's not right, and I will Go To Bed Now, Do Not Pass Go. My partner will usually comment if I'm up past 22:45, which is a useful reminder. If I'm feeling very sleepy by 22:00, I'll go then, but not usually much earlier, because then I tend to end up very deep in a sleep cycle at 07:55, and then I feel Very Shit.

I try to have dinner no later than 19:30, so I have time to digest before going to bed. Any exercise has to be earlier in the day, again so that I've got time to wind down before bed.

I start off my Taking my nighttime pills (I have a computer reminder for this).

Once I leave the living room for the night, there are no LCD screens. I can look at my eReader or a Real Book (TM), but No Computer/Phone/TV. I tend to clean teeth etc, and then try to go straight to listening to an audiobook. I tend to use an eyemask, so I'm not distracted by glowing lights, sunlight (in summer) etc.

I will not start playing very engaging computer games or do anything very thinky after 21:30, because it makes it hard to sleep. I will generally spod, play something a bit less engaging (usually something without flashy visuals), or read after that time. If I'm reading, I will try to make sure that I postpone books by known page-turn-y authors to the weekend. Or exercise tremendous self-discipline, but that's something I've worked up to over multiple years.

I stick pretty rigidly to the routine on Work Nights, and am more freeform when it's the weekend or I'm on leave. The pills tend to provide me with a big corrective if I drift too far off this, because otherwise it's sort of like having a hangover, but without either the headache or the fun. So I have no temptation to push the envelope, because when I do it manifestly sucks right there and then. You may need to be more mechanical about following a routine, because you may find the bad effects stack eventually, but you may not get such clear cause + consequence.

[cosmolinguist]

I have different sleep difficulties so I'm very sympathetic. The person I live with has ones very similar to this, so it's certainly something I think about a lot. I'm happy to be on such a filter and try to contribute.

[kht]

I sometimes have this problem too, and would be very happy to be on your filter.

[kaberett]

- def happy to be on a filter
- also dealing with similar-ish things (I say, at midnight, sigh)
- I have all my relevant devices set to automatically adjust screen colour-temperature for me, yes
- one of the things I'm *trying* to work on is -- okay, so, I have a hard stop on it being okay to do horn practice by 9pm, and I want to play At Least One Note, and I *try* to use that interruption to then nudge myself over into bedtime activities (Duolingo if I haven't done it yet; DW post ditto) with a goal of being Ready To Get Ready For Bed by around 10pm. This... works variably well.
- on which note: to bed!

[hairyears]

I would like to be on this filter, too: there's a good chance that it might be useful.

[(Anonymous)]

Would like to be included on the filter and will make an effort to comment. I have a colour filter that kicks in on my devices to reduce blue light which allegedly can make it harder to go to sleep. The screen changing colour can be helpful reminder that I need to go to bed.

[hjdoom]

Forgot to log in. The above post is me.

[faerierhona]

I am happy to be on the filter, but will be honest and say that it is as much to learn as anything else as my sleep is *appalling*

[emperor]

Catching up on DW post holiday, I would happily be on your filter [yes, I know I owe you emails!]

My sleep-procrastination is definitely worse when atreic is away or already in bed asleep; I find myself watching "one more episode..." or reading one more doomy article on twitter, or...

I'm pretty serious about not spodding in bed, though, which I think sometimes helps. EPID, though :)

[themidnightgirl]

I'm happy to be on a filter, though not always a lot of use when it comes to "not getting to sleep" - my problems tend to be more "falling asleep when I want to stay awake", as you know.

[wildeabandon]

It seems quite unfair that I often manage to have that problem /as well/ as being rubbish at going to bed (or possibly because of if - always running on sleep deficit may just have taught my body to take any opportunity to catch up)

[doseybat]

Happy to be on the filter and comment.

I took this pandemic as an opportunity to try to understand how much sleep body honestly wants. The easiest ("natural"?) pattern seems to be 9-13 hours a day, with a variability of +/- 3 hours for sleeping and waking up.. No idea whether this is messed up by the anaemia and hormone situation. Sort of trying to respect whatever body wants to do instead of forcing specific times.

[juliet]

Happy to be on filter & to comment (though tend to be on DW every-other-day not daily, for schedule structure reasons).

I struggle with sleep procrastination too -- tend not to have trouble getting to sleep once lights are out, but VERY BAD at a) staying up doing other things first, and b) "oh I'll just read a few pages"...time passes...oh dear.

My experience re strictness of bedtime is that it takes me longer than I optimistically believe it does to go from "ok! ready to go to bed!" to "actually in bed with book in hand" to "lights out". For me personally, if I want to be in bed by 11, I need to start going to bed at 10.30, and if I want to be lights-out by 11 I need to start going to bed more like 10. (I do not understand this. How can it take that long to brush my teeth? But of course the answer is that it's also: oh I should check my list for tomorrow, and I'll just put these things away since it's not *quite* bedtime yet, and I forgot to do my physio, and...)

I am, therefore, endeavouring to start going to bed at 10 at the moment, but I struggle with this because it feels annoyingly early :/ and can't manage it every night due to social commitments to other people. So I am instead trying to pre-load some of the "oh I'll just..." pre-bedtime tasks to see if that helps.

I have also found as other people have mentioned that latest of eating is a factor but that's more with getting to sleep than with getting to the being-in-bed state.